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Offline JMX  
#121 Posted : Wednesday, October 7, 2015 8:01:06 PM(UTC)
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2 Thumbs up I really enjoyed the book. Although I think some of your reviewers might be slightly retarded. One person gave 1 star because he only wanted to read about Tom. He must be easily confused and can't follow multiple characters.
Offline Tizzy  
#122 Posted : Thursday, October 8, 2015 12:50:25 AM(UTC)
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What?!?! Only 2?

Why not 3 or 4 thumbs up?

Dancing

I myself have a mixed opinion, mainly due to the spurious allegations T-A-G has made about me being some sort of super manipulative interdimensional drug dealer.

So I give it 2 thumbs (Upper Right, Lower Left) up and 2 thumbs down (Upper Left, Lower Right), netting it out to 0 thumbs.

Offline The Author Guy  
#123 Posted : Thursday, October 8, 2015 12:59:43 AM(UTC)
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Reviews are what they are, reading is such a subjective experience by definition.

And I wrote this book(s) for hardcore SF/Fantasy/Gamer readers and such people, almost by definition, have strong passions. I know the crowd, I am the crowd.

The thing is, when one really gets into a book and then have to wait some time for the next, you can build up all these expectations for how you would have written it. If the author doesn't do what you expected, or hoped, then you get a big huge letdown.

I hope that some who were disappointed will give it another shot later to read it without all the old expectations.

I knew I'd have some problems because I got responses for people that went in diametrically opposed directions in what they wanted to see. No way to keep everyone happy.

So there was this one guy on Amazon who called himself "The Hater" he read both the first and the second and post these 1 star reviews of both.

Hey as long as he read them...the gold crowns still pile up!

But at least hir lives up (?) to hir name. Hir hates. Went to look at some of hir other reviews. Lots of negative reviews, but a few positive ones which makes me almost curious to read the ones The Hater likes.

I think the criticism "I get" the most is probably the rehashing. I knew I was doing it, but I was trying to capture everyone's reactions and responses. In hindsight, I should have been more efficient during these scenes so as to not over-retell. But I had a lot of people going "I want to know X person's reactions!"

The POV switching was done in the first book, but since it took place over 30 days, individual scenes were longer. In the new book it's 1/3 the time and I had to cover a lot of ground so shorter scenes because it was all happening at once.

I knew I was taking a chance, but I figured if you look at the pacing of modern TV shows (MTV generation++++) compared to older ones, I thought it would work for most.

Ah well.

Book 3 takes place over a longer period of time so POV switching will slow down, maybe back to Book 1 levels.

Definitely going to try to be careful and efficient on reaction scenes.

Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks!

Edited by user Thursday, October 8, 2015 1:00:22 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline The Author Guy  
#124 Posted : Thursday, October 8, 2015 1:03:30 AM(UTC)
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To be totally fair to the Tom lovers.

I remember in the Wheel of Time books as they started to expand...I was like, "Where's the Rand" who cares about most of these others!

I mean, I did like them, but I was so impatient to get back to the Rand story, about 1/3 of the other POV's drug out way too much. It got worse as the series went on.

There will be more Tom in Book 3, but the others will still be there.

Offline Puck  
#125 Posted : Thursday, October 8, 2015 11:54:56 PM(UTC)
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Yuuuuus, more Tom. I love everyone. But really, its all about Tom isn't it >_>;
Offline The Author Guy  
#126 Posted : Friday, October 9, 2015 12:42:39 AM(UTC)
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There will be more Tom in book 3.

As I mentioned in the Amazon forums today, the reason there was so little Tom in the first half of book 2 was because he was sitting in his cave waiting for Talarius to regenerate, Reggie to acclimate and most importantly, figure out something to do!

Remember in Book 1, he spent a lot of time sitting bored in his cave making furniture. But because that was on a longer slower timescale, I could just skip in time.

However, in book 2, a lot of important stuff was happening in the aftermath of the book 1 battle, people were doing stuff, stuff that will have a direct effect on Tom in the future.

Therefore, those people who were doing stuff in that time frame got longer sections because in that "time period" they were actively doing stuff to advance the story, whereas Tom and friends were sitting around in a cave.

You note that Tizzy spent his time in the cave (the first half of the book) writing in this forum. If you go back and look at some older posts of his you'll see him talk about being stuck in Tom's cave, and he then got in a long discussion with Rosver and others about ruined buildings and such in the Courts...which Tom & Antefalken alude to when they meet up with Damien. His cavemates thought he was talking to himself, but he was actually writing/dictating in this forum he's got like a magical "Dragon Naturally Speaking" spell or something.

Anyway, book 3 goes back to a larger time scale and now Tom has something, in fact an awful lot, to do. So his story time will get bumped up.
Offline Rosver  
#127 Posted : Friday, October 9, 2015 8:59:01 AM(UTC)
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I'm one who give a negative review with 2 stars at Goodreads.



@JMX

Well, it would have been OK to have multiple POV if the POV characters are noteworthy and are relevant storywise or at least give something exetremely entertaining (like Scrat from Ice Age), but many of these POV characters aren't. Specificaly many of the D'orcs like Ragala-nargoloth. They are a difinition of filler, very unneccesary ones.

Many POV characters are also given too much time they don't deserve. Vaselle particularly is given lot of scenes and word space when he barely contribute anything. The D'Orcs party preparation is a bit obnoxious too.

It is not that it creates confusion or it is hard to follow, we just simply don't care about them. And if we don't care about them, we don't want to read about them.

Of course, there is also the fact that I can't see how to push the story forward. The Author Guy keeps saying that they do, but I just can't see it. I read multiple times and I still can't see it.



As for the reaction scenes, they are OK, though at times you linger too long on them and of course there are some characters whose reactions we don't really care like this Randolf. These might be least of my complaints.

Though if I pin one thing that vastly affects my view, its the lack of cohesion. All the characters, all the events, all the details just come together in a erratic and disharmonious manner. There something going on with the council of wizards here, then there is this about the partheon of Tiernon, then something is going on with Oorstemoth too, and there is of course Tom, the mystery book which got with all of these, Rupert suddenly jostle in, and many others.

There is also lot of such things in the first book but they all go together for a solid experience. They layer together beautifuly like layers of lasagna. Book 2 however is so disjointed. Even though I can enjoy many of them individually, they don't combine into one coherent experience.
Offline Puck  
#128 Posted : Friday, October 9, 2015 8:01:20 PM(UTC)
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That royal 'We' though. While I will freely admit I loved Toms scenes most, followed by Hilda (took awhile) I did appreciate the other points of view. T.A.G goes a ways to develop his world. Here on the forums and in the book. I believe those points of view were very important to develop characterization and expound on the personalities. For example, Orcs and D'orcs were proven to be quite similar to other races. Its one thing to be told this another to see it. I also like how the little points connected ^^.

I suppose I just have to respectfully disagree. Would I be overly upset if their weren't as many? No. But I don't think they detracted from the book any.
Offline Rosver  
#129 Posted : Friday, October 9, 2015 9:55:55 PM(UTC)
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I'm sure the 'we' I mean includes other critical reviewers. I read their review they share the same sentiments. JMX specificaly says:

"2 Thumbs up I really enjoyed the book. Although I think some of your reviewers might be slightly retarded. One person gave 1 star because he only wanted to read about Tom. He must be easily confused and can't follow multiple characters."

Though I'm quite a bit insulted when JMX says that this reviewer is retarded. I'm sure this reviewer after reading this would say that this reviewers who give four or five stars are the ones who is retarted.

Though for your claim that the Orcs and D'Orcs are like the other races, that is not really conclusive from the book. I might say, you are making a big assumption without any support. Especially when the other races doesn't really have much time under the spot light. For example the Djinns, the dragons, the centaurs, the dwarfs, etc.

And what do you mean "how the little points connected?" Can you be more specific? Because really what I see is the opposite. Like, what is with this Vaselle guy. Did the author just really need someone to do the shopping? And what is with this Randolf and that Djinn. How did Randolf get that Djinn's favor? And what is with the Partheon of Teirnon. After all this time investigating, they still don't make an effort to get his name and instead depend on assumptions and speculation? Really, I see more points getting disconnected than them connecting.

So, I also respectfully disagree. They do really keep me from enjoying the book.
Offline Puck  
#130 Posted : Sunday, October 11, 2015 1:16:24 AM(UTC)
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I suppose I should have been more specific. The other races being compared aren't dragons, centaurs, and dwarfs. Its the various humans of Astlan.

And little points. Did Vaselle come out of left field? Yes, but their was an effort to push him into the story. He had a use, he provided a potential trail, he offered some forshadowing. Purpose. As for everything else, I think you wanted things to be wrapped up in the one book? In book one things layered nicely. Book two was more chaotic yes, but I feel like its supposed to be. In book three I certainly expect more answers. The Djinn threw me out of left field to, but I've been keeping up with the forums so I found some manner of point. I suppose I can only say don't take the books to seriously. From the get go, they've had a sillier element to it. Maybe after book three (Should you choose to read it) your opinion might change, or perhaps mine will!

One never knows!
Offline The Author Guy  
#131 Posted : Sunday, October 11, 2015 5:06:40 PM(UTC)
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@Rosver

Yes, I know your opinion, I have read all the reviews and opinion, and no one is calling anyone anything, including JMX etc. Different people have different perspectives. Reading and stories are subjective experiences. They are far more personal than TV or Movies because you have to use your own imagination to bring the words to life. What works for some people doesn't always work for others. Reading is a joint experience between author and reader.

I can't possibly write a book or books that pleases everyone. I just have to try to please myself and as many others as I can.

Given your complaints listed in this thread, I would say, as I said during the beta, you are not able to see the forest due to all the stupid trees in the way.

Not everything has to make sense immediately. In life, some things, the actions of some people around you and towards you won't make sense to you for many years, and maybe never. The same thing is true in a complex book in what we call "epic fantasy."

Just because "you" can't see or understand something immediately doesn't mean it's stupid or useless or has no point. Maybe the problem isn't the character or the substory line, maybe the problem is that you haven't read the entire book (and again Demons of Astlan is one book in multiple volumes) and so you do not yet know how these things are going to play out.

I said this many times in beta. It's a long book and I can't cram everything into a single volume. These books are NOT sequels, they are one very long book. There is a beginning that happened at the start of book 1, but there will be NO ending, NO closure until the last page of the final book (and even then...there could be new beginnings after that) But the end of each book is just an arbitrary break point. A resting point to take a breath during a very long journey.

I really don't know how much I can stress this.

If you have to have closure in a single book, then I suggest you wait until you see: "Demons of Astlan: The Final Volume" and then read them all at once. I will also do an omnibus volume (or two) at some point. I think the total story will be about 2 million words. We are around 500,000 in right now. So we are 1/4 of the way done, probably.

But I warn you, even then, I may not wrap up every loose end to your satisfaction.

Life does not have tidy endings, nor should stories. Part of the joy of life is not knowing where things are going, following leads/ideas/adventures for their own sake, and not for the sake of some future goal.

Offline Rosver  
#132 Posted : Sunday, October 11, 2015 11:27:47 PM(UTC)
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@Puck

"For example, Orcs and D'orcs were proven to be quite similar to other races."

Then

"The other races being compared aren't dragons, centaurs, and dwarfs. Its the various humans of Astlan."

Hmm... I think humans is only one race.

I don't expect things to wrap up in this book, I am only countering your point. You claim that: "...the little points connected" when I see a lot of points just floating around. You even manage to support me instead.

So because it is silly, I only have to give positive reviews? Being critical is being too serious? I can't have negative sentiment for works that are meant to be funny? Being a commedy excuses poor execution? It is OK for works to be subpar if it is ?

@The Author Guy

Wait!

"Just because "you" can't see or understand something immediately doesn't mean it's stupid or useless or has no point."

I never said that! Stupid? Useless? Has no Point? None of these are my sentiment. I don't even care if i don't understant things immediately. None of that is even in my review. If you allow me, I would even copy it here.

The essence of my review is: This book is damn too long for the story it is telling and these new characters are uninteresting.

And I know that these books are really telling just one story. Very much like the Lord of the Rings. And, again, that is not even my complaint. Why do you keep pushing that to me. I don't even care about that. I can't really argue about things that I haven't even thought about.
Offline Dirk Flamberge  
#133 Posted : Monday, October 12, 2015 3:49:05 AM(UTC)
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Well i quite liked the book, and although there is a lot of POV switching and unanswered questions running around my mind at the moment regarding some characters, I don't find fault for it that it isn't all resolved in this one book considering it isn't a individual enclosed addition but more like a chain link of continuous literature. To be honest Rosver it sounds like you're taking the counter-comments Very personally for some reason, but it's not my job or desire to question someone ungeschliffen as you are, so I'll leave it be. 5 stars TAG good read can't wait for book III Applause


Offline Rosver  
#134 Posted : Monday, October 12, 2015 1:51:21 PM(UTC)
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@Dirk Flamberge

Yeah. I guess I'm being too aggressive.

Though, I'm kinda annoyed when people keep using straw mans and ad hominem. After a few of that I'm read to explode!

The Author Guy also says that "you are not able to see the forest due to all the stupid trees in the way" - in turn he can't see the individual trees because he is only concerned with the forest. He keeps missing details even if it is pointed out to him.



On the other topic, glad you like the book. I tried to like it, but I just can't. It not because it is open ended, but becuase it skimps on things I look for in books. I would gladly read a badly or not edited text (would result to 1 star in many people) as long as the things I'm looking for is there.

Edited by user Monday, October 12, 2015 2:32:43 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline The Author Guy  
#135 Posted : Monday, October 12, 2015 5:11:18 PM(UTC)
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So here is my problem then Rosver.

You were in the beta reader program. All you did was complain about how useless and boring the parts you didn't like were.

I got very little from you in terms of what you did wantd to see, only what you didn't want to see. When you gave me specific examples I tried to work to correct those, sometimes, I could, sometimes I could not. But, really, you gave me very little in the way of corrective advice, just complaints about what you didn't like with no good strong suggestions for fixing them or improving the story.

I practically begged you for ways to make it better, so you liked it more. But got silence.

And as far as the straw man, well, maybe it's the difference in languages, but to me, it sounds like you are calling everything you don't like, stupid, useless, pointless and boring. That's the message you are telling me. You don't tell me why, or how to improve it, you just complain.

Clearly Rosver, you are very bright, very analytical and I listen to you. And you had a HUGE opportunity to shape the book in the beta program, and you chose not to do so. You just complained about the lame crap you didn't like without giving me sufficient feedback to work with.

One thing that annoyed me in your goodreads review is that you brought up complaints there that you never brought up in the beta session. I consider that a breach of beta reading protocol. You should have brought all the complaints up. If I didn't address them, or I did things without giving you a chance to weigh in, then complain about them in your review. But don't bring up new stuff after the fact.

So, given all the attention I paid to you, and the opportunity you had. You have some responsibility for not getting what you wanted. That's why I have the beta program. True, I won't be able to even satisfy all the beta readers, but it's an opportunity to build consensus around the things I can change/fix/improve and still keep the story on track.

Here's a suggestion, anyone can write, anyone can publish on Amazon or Smashwords. Why don't you try writing a book that you like and putting it out there? Then get feedback and complaints and try to deal with it to make your story better.

I think that will give you a lot of perspective and help you improve your analytical skills and the advice you give. Because, yes, I do want to hear what you have to say, but I need you to give it to me in an actionable manner.
Offline Rosver  
#136 Posted : Monday, October 12, 2015 10:45:24 PM(UTC)
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But, the complaints I give have been present since the start and many Betas pointed them out. All of my complaints has been there since the beggining. I and other betas has given you many specific points and pointed them out. All the complaints is not new.

The rehashing of the plot? Almost everyone pointed that out from the start.

Too many POV? Again, have been pointed out from the start. You are just reluctant to remove them.

Characters not really makes the plot move forward? Yep, been talked about since day one. And you say the same thing as you said here: we don't see the forest.

Want more story about Tom? A favorite request. One beta even request to have Tom fight some monster.

In fact all complaints in the critical reviews has been the complaint of many beta from the beggining.



On the other hand, did I really write in my review things I never pointed out in Beta? What is it? I thought all of my complaints have been given to you at beta.
Offline The Author Guy  
#137 Posted : Tuesday, October 13, 2015 3:09:26 PM(UTC)
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Your main complaint in beta was:

"I hate Jenn and Gastrope's story; remove it; remove the Grove and the Nimbus or cut them down to almost nothing." You also weren't that happy with too much Hilda.

I did cut out the roller coaster. But cutting out the Grove and Gastrope' and Jenn storylines sabotages stuff that comes later. I have to set things up for future events; otherwise there is no backstory or I have to spring it on people. That's the forest; you wanted me to start cutting down half the trees in it.

The POV's were mentioned, but all about they are distracting us from Tom; not that they were confusing and certainly I saw no major complaints on the rehashing that said that exactly.

Here is the thing, Tom was stuck in a cave for several days while Talarius recovered and he figured out what to do. Now in book 1, he also spent a lot of time in the cave, and we sort of skipped over it in time and just said that he made furniture. We could do this because nothing else was happening. So time could jump a couple days for everyone.

This time, when he was stuck in the cave for several days, a LOT of other stuff was happening, a lot of stuff that was setting up future books and reactions from observers; the reaction scenes were things that lots of people had requested in various forums here and on Amazon and Goodreads had asked for; so I wanted to deliver. So while he is doing nothing, I covered the important stuff other people were doing.

What was I supposed to do during that time period? Have pages and pages of the guys in the cave navel gazing and having odd conversations with Tizzy and arguments with sleeping Talarius? I could have covered more Reggie, but that too would have been distracting to you.

You mentioned something in the review about the sex bothering you?

This is why I want you to try writing a book, a book who's story you believe in and that you want to tell. I have constraints; the constraints of the story itself. You want me to toss them out because you don't understand them. I can't do this and still have "the story"

Now everyone wanted more action, more battles; I gave you all that. But you still weren't happy.

Honestly, I had and have no idea what you wanted. You just told me what you didn't want, which was like half the book. You don't ever tell me what's good; only what's bad. So I have no idea what it is you actually want; just what you didn't want. You are the reviewer of "No" but you can't articulate why you say "no" you just say "no"

"I hate Hilda; I hate the Grove; it's boring; it's not going anywhere, it doesn't add to the plot." (FOREST ALERT--this is what you call the straw man) I kept telling you yes it does add to the plot/story; you just can't see it yet. But you said "cut it out anyway" and when I said I couldn't; you didn't work to make it better/more interesting you just went away.

So whatever, the books will march on and I will get feedback, input and even direction from those that want to provide it. But Rosver, it's my story and I have to tell it. I will be guided by others, but I can't please everyone. It just isn't possible. If you don't like it and don't want to add constructive criticism that improves the book but only hack it to pieces, that's your right. I'll take it under advisement; but I'd really prefer you to be helpful and constructive and not so negative, defensive and curmudgeonly.

You have great insight and a keen mind, I just wish you'd use it to build rather than tear down.
Offline Rosver  
#138 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2015 4:40:46 AM(UTC)
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Yes, I do say that about Jenn and Gastrope and yes I want you to remove it or summarize it. Though it is not only me who has that view.

There was that Beta 1, general impressions, where I say a lot of stuff about the story.

And what are you saying? I do like Hilda. Never have much complaint about her.

The tree here though is that they are doing a lot of nothing and it's terribly boring. I suggest that you either cut their scenes or make it more brief or make the treck more exciting. I even suggest that Jenn and Gastrope exchange stories with the residents of the Grove and such. Instead of doing something about the fact that they are doing much nothing and its terribly boring (the trees), you keep saying that Jenn and Gastrope's treck is an important setup and important to future events (the forest). In the end the trees are still there, the treck is still boring with Jenn and Gastrope still doing much of nothing.

Though I must say, you do make the Nimbus part of the treck very exciting, that I approve. The ice dragons are a really nice touch.

As for the POV, first, I did not say in the review that they are confusing. What I said was they disrupt the flow of the story. Often times they feel disconnected that I had been skipping them when I read. The rehashing mostly is not said explicitly. Some beta say that the beggining half of the book have nothing happening or not exciting, I said that things keep repeating. There is one beta though that say that the early part of the book has only characters talking about the events of the first book.

As for Tom and company. It was just a collective desire to have more of Tom. It is not only me who want this. It was what we, the readers, desire. What you do with that knowledge is up to you. Also, you keep asking us for what we want, and we give you what we want. We want more of Tom.

As for sex, it is much more of a personal preference. It is also present in Book 1 but I just ignore it because Book 1 is just so great. Book 2 however is a different story, and it does not help when the sex has multiplied. And I say, what the heck, lets put it up. Really though, it is more of an irritant than anything.

Though there is one that I loath with the sex stuff, that is Trevin. Loath her. Hate her. I so really want to see her die. And her disgusting sexual advances is one big reason why.

Though many of us (hey it is not only me) who wants many parts out. The "tree" here though is that we don't like those parts; that is why we want them off. As a writer you could... well... make them interesting? Make them more likeable? There should be many ways you could do without removing them. In the end you did nothing. So in the end, we still don't like them.

Hey I did, say the things I want, though most of it is about stuff I want you to remove, there are some things that I want you to add. One of that is some Tom and Rupert moments. Another is to see Vaselle doing more than just shopping.

And I do put forth things that are good. The fight with ice dragons? I give you praise. D'Orcs? They are totally awesome! Tom acquiring the Rod? Interesting. I even like Vaselle when he really is just taking word space.

And wait!!! I don't hate Hilda. In fact, aside from Tom, she is one of my favorite character. You want to know who I really hate? Trevin. Gosh, I said it quite clearly in beta. Really hate her.

And I didn't hate the Grove, though, I don't care much about the Grove either.

Yes, the forest. They somehow contributed to the story. The tree though is that I can't see how it contributed to the story. And yes, I initially want it removed. Hey! Knee jerk reaction. But then, I just keep putting it forward to you since I can't still see the connection. I want them to connect to the story.

One of that, when in beta, was the mercenaries. What they do are just talking a bunch of unrelated stuff and showing off their magic. It is contributing nothing to the story. Of course they might be important later (in the third book!) but as it is now they didn't.

So, the tree was, this scene and many more similar ones, don't contribute (yet) to the story. Instead of making them connect more solidly to the story, you just leave them as is. It turns out, other readers can't see what they are about either and just see them as junk.

Yes, it is your story to tell, and in the end you will make the final decision. But understand, it was beta reading. There is bound to be negative stuff. We betas are bound to say what we don't like about the work. We would say somethings you don't like to hear. I had tried to be helpful by pointing out the problems. I did make suggestions. It is just, you can't see what I see. There are lots of problematic trees. Why can't you see them?

Thanks for admiring my insights and mind, hope it has been more useful to you though. Thanks for letting me beta read. It was a very great experience but was so stressful though.

Edited by user Wednesday, October 14, 2015 9:07:22 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Dirk Flamberge  
#139 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2015 4:54:50 AM(UTC)
Dirk Flamberge

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You really should show your criticisms in a more objective manner because it just reads like: My selfish overemphasized views are so important that I'm going to say it was more than me who hold them as their thoughts on the book. Sounds more like people can't handle pauses between the action like jittery children, also it hardly seems to be 'helpful' the way that you throw things out there like banging a stick against a tree like so much pointless background noise. I for one think there's a difference between personal gripes and actual critique.
Offline Rosver  
#140 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2015 8:35:00 AM(UTC)
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@Dark Flamberge

I take that to mind. More objective. Yes.

Though in terms of me being loud, selfish and what not, is that about the beta reading? Have you read my beta reading comments? Do you even read what other beta readers has said? Am I really "banging a stick against a tree like so much pointless background noise" there? Do you really think it was only I who had those thoughts about the book. Did you even read the reviews in Amazon?

Really I'm starting to think that you have no clue what so ever about what The Author Guy and I was talking about.

Also, here, I am not critiquing since the beta reading is already over. This is just normal posts and comments.

I do have a review though at goodreads, but please don't think it is a critique.

As for pauses, there is quite a difference between necessary stops and unnecessary bloat. It would have been OK, if this pauses, as you call them, adds something to the story, instead of like repeating things or info dumps or just so pointless. A scene like Tom and company talking about what to do with Talarius is different from a scene where there is this character talking about something that other characters have talked about already. A scene where the council of wizards are discusing what to do after the event is different from the scene where certain characters are just plainly travelling from point A to point B. Both are 'pauses' and contains no action, but one contributed something to the story while the other does not.

Also, if you are talking about the review, it is, somewhat, what you call 'personal gripes.' It was a personal reaction to the experience. It is certainly not a critique though. It isn't meant to be one.

Edited by user Wednesday, October 14, 2015 9:45:40 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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