A very good question, both are good options. Tom would not be experienced enough to separate the 3 options (real, umbra, higher level)

There is some exploration of this in Book 2...so I can't say too much. But it is about as real as the Styx. Whatever that means. I forget.

:)

You are very correct about doing nothing I haven't commanded you. Popping the soldier was definitely disobeying/circumnavigating that.

He didn't really fly much off course though, and taking the nap is generally something you could do within the time frame, as long he got back on time.

If he'd flown to another town off the general path...that would have been wrong. But varying off course by half a mile or so is not so much a problem as long as his path was accurate to the resolution of the hand drawn map. On that front, the command is much more about Tom's intentions than what he actually does through no fault of his own.

For example if the map was wrong, but he followed it correctly and ended up somewhere else...Lenamare would have had a problem on his hands. It's exactly such situations that demons love to exploit.

If he'd really wanted to be sure, Lenamare would have used an actual compulsion spell on top of the longer term bindings to force Tom's more explicit obedience. Instead he relied on the basic binding between him and Tom to enforce the order. So, yes it was sloppy of Lenamare in dealing with a 4th order. But to be fair, he'd never had a fourth order demon to control before.

Well....perhaps...however, knowing wizards, Lenamare was probably far more concerned about Tom sticking around and munching on Zilquar's people.

He did immediately turn around and started returning, he just delayed, and then things caught up to him...

So I, myself, would likely have interpreted the "immediately" as deliver the message and don't stick around, head right back home.

So, he immediately began returning, however, the real constraint was the time constraint of when he had to be back by, and Tom felt that he could
stop for a bit and still return by the time constraint, and technically he could have, he wasn't lying to himself, if he had been, he couldn't have stopped.

This is why giving demons instructions is always dangerous. Instructions are often up to interpretation, if the demon can figure out a way to sincerely and "truly" believe they are abiding by the letter of the command, they can generally get away with it. However, they have to convince themselves, legitimately that they are obeying a reasonable interpretation of the command.

Now, that being said, the wizard might disagree, and when the demon gets back and the wizard is ticked off, the wizard can then punish the demon with lots of different torments and punishments. An experienced demon would have been aware of this as well...Tom, probably not so much.

You are completely right.

Fortunately for wizards, your average demon on the street isn't much brighter than your average humanoid on the street.

Given that so many demons come from Earth like worlds, I wonder if most higher demons were originally Politicians, Lawyers, Mathematicians, Logicians, Poetry Majors, Writers, Used Car Salesmen, you know people that are good at twisting logic and words...

I can see where it sounds like he deviated.

But the key is that he took a different route back, but assuming the two routes (follow a road or go as the demon flies) will work within the time frame, I'd say he's within the rules of the order.

For most demons, if the demon thought/believed/knew that the other route was definitely longer, then they would feel a compulsion to not take it, or shorten it.

Given that Tom did have a very strong compulsion on the time element, and he didn't seem to feel one on his alternate route, I would say he was within the rules.

I would think that if he were overriding the rules due to being more powerful than expected, he'd have at least felt the compulsion, resisted it, and did it anyway.

Now, of course taking a nap was not directly back, but depending on how you read "directly" as in does that imply a time constraint? That would be a point of contention, however Lenamare did give him a time constraint, so in that case "directly" would allow for the nap, if there was no deviation and he stayed within the overriding time constraint.

Now...popping that soldier is definitely harming someone else...however, that wasn't so much willfully harming someone as it was horrified reaction/response that ended up gutting someone, e.g. an accident.

Compulsions about not killing people don't apply to accidents, unless the demon is specifically creating an accident with the purpose of killing someone.

So, in short, I probably wouldn't read too much into the rules thing making him higher level, in part because he wasn't purposefully trying to disobey, and the compulsion did hit him when he did run late. If he'd been able to resist the compulsion at the end of the journey, then that would be a sign. If he doesn't really test the boundaries of the orders, then we can't know much for certain about his strength.

Personally I would be very hesitent as a wizard to give the following order though: "You will do nothing that I have not commanded you"

At that moment you have given the demon so much ammunition against you that it is not funny anymore.

"Master, you never told me how to get to the tower? Fly? Sure. At what speed? Fast as possible?"
"Master, you never told me to breath? What do you mean I don't breath? Semetics."
"Master, ..."

I would dare say that by that single line Lenamare completely screwed up his own orders. He basically gave an impossible command. Which does raise the question, what happens if you give a demon a command he cannot follow*?

* Reminding me of the Twilight story were a math teacher accidentally summons a demon who then must be paid the teacher's soul for a service unless of course the teacher requests something the demon cannot give. Getting lost is apparently impossible for demon who knows everything ;)

Tom is just too gentle. I mean, Lenamare's order has so many holes, though he did take a little advantage of that, but at least he could have some fun.

Well, I'm a Major Demon now. Hahaha!

As for being a demon, I will not tell. I think to myself as a master manipulator and holding back information is a great way to manipulate people. Also, such information is a great advantage in many situation, I will like to keep my advantage for now.

Hmmm. From what I understand in psychology, creatures want another creature dead if they fear it or feel that the creature is a danger to them (to their health, power, wealth, sanity), like how humans kill snakes and spiders (they fear them). You might be, from being nosy it seems, gathered knowledge that other demons don't want to share with others. They fear that you might divulge it to others. Getting rid of you is a great way to do that, though they might not feel it urgently since it seems you aren't spreading those (except is certain cases like pointing out Bess to Tom as being a demon even if she is in her disguise).

There is also those who love to kill and/or hunt but it doesn't seem to apply to your situation.

Also, if there was a proof about the effect of the compulsion on the demons, then the 'purge' that is done on the city is a mighty proof. Tom isn't able to withstand it. The archdemons isn't also. I was also trying to see if the 'purge's' effect correlates to the power of the demon. That is the weaker the demon, the stronger and faster the effect of the spell will be. It seems so. The weaker ones are the ones who fled first and the stronger ones last. Of course there is a margin of error. Some weaker demons might stay longer due to circumstances or will alone, and the stronger ones might just fled even if the compulsion is not that strong enough (like the case of Tom).

So in the end we won't really find out about power levels much more until the next book is out, i guess? It's going to be a long few months...



- Dirk

You do realize that this comment clashes with the mirror? ;) The mirror is not as digital as the wizard's system, but it does show a clear differentiation in power.

Obviously, if you are physically and/or magically more powerful there is no guarantee you are going to win except perhaps in a direct fight. Hack, even in a direct fight you can take an opponent by surprise and win as long as the difference in power is either not too big or, when it is, your opponent is foolish enough to play with you (think hare and the turtle fable). Something tells me that this discussion is about the measurable power of Tom and not his ability to use said power (let alone the incredibly hard to measure and potential extremely powerful power to make friends/allies/dupes) in a long term conflict with another force. After all, most of your readers are humans, and just like those human wizards they want to categorize demons in a nice and easy categories ;)

Edited by user Monday, February 2, 2015 3:46:20 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified