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Offline Zombie  
#21 Posted : Friday, May 16, 2014 10:41:37 AM(UTC)
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i remember that the knight saw 2 blue, 1 pale blue and 1 green demon in the palace. it the stands to reason that Tom is the pale blue, Rammus and Exador blue and Rupert green.
Tom is a new demon so he still have a lot of time to get better at magic and it looks like he found some way to make himself stronger from that god at the end so he is probably stronger now or got some other special power from that. Maybe he can do it again on their gods/demon/wizard or the same god again but i don't believe that will happen any time soon.
Offline Tizzy  
#22 Posted : Saturday, May 17, 2014 3:22:35 AM(UTC)
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I would agree...that sounds like what I told the author guy to write about the numbers and the logic seems good to me.

..just a moment, my pipe went out....

.....gotta light it....

waaahhh.....sweet....that's better.....

what were we talking about?
Offline TheOtherGuy  
#23 Posted : Saturday, May 17, 2014 3:37:04 AM(UTC)
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What about Bess though, wasn't she in the building at the time also?
Offline Tizzy  
#24 Posted : Saturday, May 17, 2014 4:07:04 AM(UTC)
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She was the big question in earlier discussion...although to be fair...not sure if that was here or at Amazon

It's not clear to anyone whether she was in the city at the time....we know that Exador and Ramses were there at various points, but until the shield goes up, they (and Bess) could be teleporting/demonic gatewaying to wherever...

Offline Zombie  
#25 Posted : Saturday, May 17, 2014 4:07:45 AM(UTC)
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i dont think we know if she was there or not. There was only one rank 4 deamon and rank 3 can't pose as human so i dont thing Bass was there

Edited by user Saturday, May 17, 2014 4:08:55 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Anskier  
#26 Posted : Saturday, May 17, 2014 6:18:23 PM(UTC)
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If a demon becomes more powerful - lets say something that started as a shadow grows to become a archdemon over the ages - would it's demonic true form change as it got stronger or would it always be what it started as?
Offline Tizzy  
#27 Posted : Saturday, May 17, 2014 11:39:01 PM(UTC)
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Seems plausible to me.

If you can shapeshift, then after several thousand years, you are the only person that remembers what you originally looked like because you don't use that form any more, and no one can force you into it via summoning, then my guess is that whatever your most common form is would sort of become your "defacto" new form.

But then again...maybe not?Think

It would be interesting to see, anyone want to try to force Lillith back into her original form? If so, please let me know so I can be on the other side of the Abyss.

Offline Uuvini  
#28 Posted : Sunday, May 18, 2014 7:27:52 AM(UTC)
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Some of my thoughts.

As one has new experiences, if you learn from them, you grow. Think of it like kind of like a well. You start out in life with a shaft down into the "bedrock" of your potential. When you start out with a well, only a certain amount of water(animus) will collect at a given time based on the size/depth of the well. As you grow, the well grows, thus allowing more and more animus to collect. So if a demon(or human) grows through experience then it can accumulate more animus, and thus more mana. This would be a long process, picture chipping away at the bottom of that well with a little hammer and chisel. In the case of a demon, however, I see there being a special point in the initial summoning. Basically if the summoners perceive a "demon" to be more powerful, they force mana into it during the binding. In this analogy I'm thinking of the mana as a combination gravity/air pressure, it is what gives the animus(water) structure and holds it together. So if you FORCE extra mana(air) into the well, it over pressurizes it, causing an artificial enlarging of the well. This allows the requisite amount of animus that is required to maintain the level of mana imposed on the "demon".
Without this the extra mana could "strangle" the animus, as if increased air pressure were pushing the water back into the rock around the well, decreasing the amount in it. Enough of this could take you below the point of self-awareness, so since demons are obviously self aware, they must acquire the amount of animus capable of offsetting the mana forced on them.
So through this mechanic Tom could have acquired more animus than his experience would allow for. It is possible that this increased animus, or enlarging of his soul, could explain the stability he has shown despite the fact that his own personal level of growth should not have allowed it. If you are thinking of animus as a soul, then it is possible that because Tom's was artificially increased, it allowed more of a buffer, or stretching room, or something for the shock.

On gods. If you assume that the gods were not always there, and judging by the statements that multiple pantheons exist we can infer that this is probably the case, then one can further assume that they were created through some process. Now if you assume that you are starting from a mortal idea/belief, then one has a possible way in which this can occur(if I am understanding the relationship between mana and animus correctly). If you have a large enough base of mortals, channeling mana into an extra-planar space, then it is conceivable for this channeled mana to over time increase up to a tipping point. Once this point is reached there will be enough mana to form its own "plane" through pressure against whatever there is in-between planes. Once this plane is established, there is a place for animus which is attracted by the large amount of mana to collect. And once this animus reaches its own tipping point, you have self awareness. Now since its only source of contact and sustenance is the believers, it is not that far of a jump to assume that this animus will take on the values and form that the believers give it (along the lines of the formation of a demons body. But since it is not self-aware before this point it does not start with its own conflicting beliefs as a demon would). However after it reaches self-awareness it can begin diverging from the original template, and thus shift, and be shifted by, the believers over time.
This would also explain why most cults (the starting point of any religion) do not produce lasting gods. They are either unable to reach the tipping point, or once reached are unable to sustain it.
Also if an established religion declined, then due to a lack of influx of mana the plane of that religions gods might implode, or if there is enough mana before hand to maintain an equilibrium simply split off from the host plane and drift until either it implodes, or another connection is made, or the god is able to find a way to shift to another plane(maybe what happens with new religions adopting and changing old gads?)

Ofcourse I could be COMPLETELY wrong in all of this, but figured I'd weigh in!

Edit: Additional thought. If my assumption on the increased animus from summoning is correct, it could also explain Tom's new "ruthlessness" in certain situations. Since the increase was formed by the forced mana, it would be imprinted with the expectations of the summoners, not by Tom's own experiences. This would also explain why it was originally like a switch being turned on and off, but later he found it becoming more a part of him. This would be because as he assimilated the new animus it would change and be changed by his original animus, thus incorporating aspects of both in the final result.

Edited by user Sunday, May 18, 2014 7:35:58 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Tizzy  
#29 Posted : Sunday, May 18, 2014 3:31:28 PM(UTC)
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Interesting take. I think very plausible on the Tom front. I like the well analogy, that works pretty "well."

On the god front, close as well, but I can't say much since a lot of that is the topic of II and III.

However, one key thing in magic that is only barely alluded to on the site here, is the idea of a Mana Pool. A mana pool is basically a battery into which mana users pour mana to draw on at a later date. Typically they are made out of crystals, and are used hold mana for magic items. Thus magic items that cast spells get their mana from these pools, which have to be recharged periodically.

To recharge the magic item you have to take the item to a wizard (or priest or someone of the profession that made the item) and get it recharged.

Many of the amulets and rings that wizards (for example) wear are not "magic per se" but rather mana pools to give them additional mana reserves in combat. The wizard who makes the mana pool has a link to it and they can charge it or draw on it as needed.

<spoiler>
There is also, I will say, an analog of this for deities and their avatars called a God Pool. It's a giant well from which deities and their servants can draw power, and to which avatars funnel mana from priests from worshipers into.
</spoiler>

Offline Anskier  
#30 Posted : Monday, May 19, 2014 11:59:16 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Tizzy Go to Quoted Post


Many of the amulets and rings that wizards (for example) wear are not "magic per se" but rather mana pools to give them additional mana reserves in combat. The wizard who makes the mana pool has a link to it and they can charge it or draw on it as needed.

<spoiler>
There is also, I will say, an analog of this for deities and their avatars called a God Pool. It's a giant well from which deities and their servants can draw power, and to which avatars funnel mana from priests from worshipers into.
</spoiler>



I'm curious can demons have mana pools as well?
Offline Maou  
#31 Posted : Tuesday, May 20, 2014 5:47:55 AM(UTC)
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I'm fairly certain that demons are some form of mana construct. Instead of a material corporeal being, they are beings of energy aka mana. This would mean that a demon's mana pool could be likened to their physical form as weakened demons tend to become somewhat incorporeal until they regain their strength. Most powerful demons can also use magic and have minor magical abilities so it might be safe to assume that all demons have mana pools.
Offline Tizzy  
#32 Posted : Sunday, May 25, 2014 9:49:35 PM(UTC)
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Again, a very interesting concept...and probably right...since they don't particularly have a permanent body to store mana in, some form of pool or pool like construct would perhaps be needed.

Book II will actually be talking about this sort of problem...
Offline Maou  
#33 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 11:28:17 AM(UTC)
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A demon can possess a body, so could a demon construct a soulless body and then possess it to create a solid form that could then be used to mask their demonic form. It would be perfect camouflage and they could survive the bodies death.
Offline Tizzy  
#34 Posted : Friday, July 4, 2014 8:12:35 PM(UTC)
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Well...it's complicated, but in short yes.

I say this because look at traditional astral travel.

If you are doing it the "right way" which is very mana intensive the following happens:

1) The astral traveler's spirit leaves it's body on it's home plane and wanders the astral plane as a spirit.
2) When it gets to the plane it wants to be on, (assuming it's the case), it creates a body on that plane (via one of several mechanisms)
3) It then animates that body. There is then a silver cord going between the two bodies and spirit hops between them.
If the traveler with two bodies is on the astral plane, he/she/it will have two silver cords (or three)
4) However, this is tricky to do as it's very expensive and both bodies need to be kept safe and fed, bathed, relieved etc.

The unoccupied body, in other words appears to be a sleep or in a coma. It will die if not cared for.

Tom was out on the astral plane with his body in a coma. The wizards had to sever the silver cord, otherwise Tom could have eventually escaped back to earth and just stay there and it would have been very hard/expensive to get him back/off of earth (even if they knew that's where he was)

Remember the comment about "he's got a body stashed out there somewhere!" They knew Tom had a body somewhere, so they had to sever his ties to it in order to truly bind him.

So yes, what you are saying is definitely possible and in some cases being done.
Offline Rosver  
#35 Posted : Saturday, July 5, 2014 1:13:58 AM(UTC)
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There was a dicussion about demon shape shifting to humans. I had a question though, could a demon shape change to other 'demonic' form? Could they take a shape that is even larger than they where? Can they shape shift part of themselves (say make their claws bigger and longer) to make themselves more dangerous. Or use their shape shifting abilities in fighting (say extending their arms reach, or ven like Mr. FAntastic in Fantastic 4). Cause really these changes are what would I had tried first if I was capable of shape shifting. It seems the demons don't seem to do so. Maybe this kind of shape changes aren't possible in some way? Why not?

Also, if demons had infiltrated the humans (like what Exador did), then it stand to reason that they also had infiltrated other species. There might be a demon shapeshifting to an elf, a demon pretending to be a dwarf, etc. Humans, like Talarius, become very paranoid after knowing that, now, if the other species know about too, wouldn't that also bring paranoia to them? By the way, it would be a big laugh to me if Tom shapeshift to be a dwarf. Hehehe.
Offline Jonnyboi  
#36 Posted : Saturday, July 5, 2014 6:34:15 AM(UTC)
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LMAO and then when people say "little edyward", he can just morph to "Big" Tom there ain't nothing small about him. Tom's thingy can best even Tizzy's double thingy too.( no offense tizzy)Sick
It's hard to be good so why try?
Offline Tizzy  
#37 Posted : Saturday, July 5, 2014 4:51:55 PM(UTC)
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If only I could shape shift then we'd see who had the biggest double thingies..

The problem with shape shifting, and this is true for all shape shifters: therianthropes if you will is that maintaining the foreign form is very difficult, your body wants to go back to it's default shape.

A wizard spell doesn't have this problem because the shape is programmed into the spell and requires no effort for the subject/victim/wizard to hold the shape (as long as the mana holds up).

For others doing it more naturally, you really have to concentrate to keep it together. The more familiar the form, the easier it is to keep it together.

Thus you find in nature (Astlan) most therianthropes only have two forms. Their humanoid form and their animal form, and sometimes a hybrid form (werewolves are the most common)

The same is basically true for demons. Yes you can mutate bodyshapes etc, but it takes effort and is often not that stable/long lasting. Thus most demons settle on only a few shapes.

That being said, the older a shape shifting demon is, the more shapes it's likely to have. You have to spend a lot of time in a shape to get it to feel "natural" or to "memorize" it, and if you don't use it frequently, you have to work to bring it back. So, the older a demon is, the more time they've had to practice different shapes.

Exador has quite a few different human shapes, each generation is a new one and he has different aged versions of them. but as a rule, he stays in whatever human form he has all the time. Simply faking the aging process is enough work as it is. So he's had probably the most forms of any demon, but he changes through them gradually and doesn't go back (except perhaps to haunt someone)

Bess has multiple demon shapes, she has her human shape, and a couple different anthro cat shapes that we know about.

Ramses has a number of different human shapes that he's used (he's been all the Ramses' on the timeline--he was doing the Exador thing) and he's got several different demon forms, we saw a couple of them in Book 1.

But, you also need to keep in mind, a shape shifting demon will still look like it's power level to demon sight. So even if Tom could shape shift to look like say Asmodeus or Lillith, it wouldn't be particularly convincing (except maybe to a human--but how would they know what a Demon Prince looked like)

Offline Maou  
#38 Posted : Sunday, July 6, 2014 7:41:54 AM(UTC)
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A demon's body is put together by a wizard's spell, so could a demon over time modify their body to be better than it was at it's own creation. Like slowly upgrading a machine. Gradually upgrading an avatar in that you gradually upgrade equipment. The base avatar is the same, but the specs are all superior as they have higher values around the board.
Offline Tizzy  
#39 Posted : Sunday, July 6, 2014 7:35:51 PM(UTC)
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I don't see why not...at least for the really big ones.

Some of us can't even change shape.

Eh?
Offline Rosver  
#40 Posted : Monday, July 7, 2014 6:22:10 AM(UTC)
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Well, if Tizzy could shapechange, the first part he would change might be his privates.

If I had a super power, shape shifting would be it. It just have soo much potential especially in deception.

So Tizzy, demon shape shifting isn't of much use in a fight isn't it? Shape shifting is tasking it seems, but can't partial shapeshift be easy? Shapeshifting your claws larger and longer, or increasing your arms length isn't really that big a change. So why can't they? Or maybe as Willis says: "If you ask me though, I'd just say the guy didn't think of it at the time." Really if demons haven't thought, they might be just dumb in some areas.

And, as it seems, that other species wouldn't be of much importance in the book isn't it? More like background characters?

Maou have a good point.
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