As a simple matter of principle, being a demon myself, I'd have to be insane to tell you how to kill me permanently.

Fortunately for you, most people consider me insane.

The C.O.D. is definitely one of the best known ways of killing a demon; it will completely rip up/consume its animus and mana.

One big reason demons are hard to kill permanently in Astlan is that as their mana bodies get too weakened they just return to the Abyss before you can completely destroy their mana body and their animus inside.

If you could somehow, keep a demon from returning to the abyss, destroy it's mana body, it would eventually dissipate like the spirit of a dead person with no afterlife agreement with a deity. that would take some time so you'd want to hurry it along, maybe by doing something to dispell the animus or get rid of it. Obviously the right kind of pentacles could help, but most of them would serve to keep the animus intact so they'd just be stuck in bodiless/manaless state inside the pentacles. Very tricky.

A C.O.D. works because it's generally too fast for the demon to escape from. A particularly high powered demon might be able to get away, but most can't.

There are certain spells that extremely high up priests can cast; but these are part of a ritual, so you need the demon trapped by a pentacle or something because it takes a while. The dagger that Talarius had had a viral version of one these sorts of spells and was what was really dangerous. It's magic interwove itself with his animus and would have followed him back to the Abyss (this is another way of doing it) However, he was able to use to the pure mana of the same god that created the viral magic to heal it.

The spell that the priests cast was more of a holy acid cloud spell. A lot more slow moving than a C.O.D. Think of it as a "Blessed" gaseous version of the dragon's breath acid. He could have escaped that by returning to the abyss/getting out of the cloud. The other cloud they cast earlier was just a mana draining cloud; along the lines of what some undead creatures can do (although most of them also drain animus).

The point of these was to weaken him enough for Talarius to defeat him/kill him.

Next, if you follow a demon to the abyss and destroy so much of his/body (and do it fast enough) that there is nothing left to regenerate they die permanently. However, that's usually a suicidal option. Same idea as C.O.D. but you get more time since the demon can't shift to another plane...unless of course they are powerful enough to get off a demonic gateway or something to another plane...but that does require concentration.

Tizzy

I wouldn't mention that to Tom. I'm not sure that's fully crossed his mind. It might freak him out.

But yes, if the dragon had been able to keep enough damage coming faster than Tom could regenerate, and exhaust his mana, he'd have died for good.

yes, it's body will take a long time to regenerate.

I have no idea "where" it is regenerating at; I suppose if I did, I could go and kill it again every few decades to keep it from coming back.

The only way I can think of, off the top of my head would be a Cloud of Disintegration cast in the Abyss. I "think" that would do it, but I won't bet my immortality on it.

Tizzy

Well, all of those ideas are certainly worth a shot...

Not sure how you are going to get any of those spells cast while it's clawing and munching at you, or breathing acid on you. Distracted spell casting is generally a bad thing; usually worse than distracted driving, but at least as potentially fatal.

But you are welcome to try. I might suggest bringing some bodyguards. Maybe the Abyssal equivalent of Barbarian Demons, Cleric Demons, Mercenary Demons, Thief Demons etc. A regular adventuring party that can protect the wizard trying to cast all these spells.

Here's the real thing...dealing with a dragon is every bit the problem as dealing with a greater demon. Look at all the work the Rod had to go to to have a chance at killing Tom and his mini-demon horde. They used mana absorbing spells and all sorts of things, plus a big nasty knight. Still didn't work (almost did).

In either event, in the Planes of Man, to perma-kill a demon, you basically have to keep it from returning to the Abyss. Over the centuries, wizards and clerics have figured out various ways to do this, if they happen to be prepared and get lucky.

It seems logical that one could do the same for dragons, certainly on the Planes of Men, and probably something in the Abyss (we just don't know where they are fleeing too in this case, which complicates things).

The problem is, no one that I know of has ever tried. You'd have to be really committed to it, and prepared to take a lot of casualties.

I suppose some of the demon princes might know how to actually do this; maybe some have. They just aren't telling me.

Tizzy

Animus dissipates in the realms of men, but is ok in the astral planes correct?

Does it dissipate in the abyss? If so after a demons body is destroyed in the mortal planes why doesn't the demons animus dissipate in the abyss?

The planes of men are supposedly where all five elements are in balance. It then mentioned the elemental planes, but I never heard of a true plane of man. The astral plane is a plane of energy so it could just be the elements mixing together, but lacking any materialization of individual aspects and just acts as the primordial plane of chaos from which order arose that you often hear of in most mythos. That leaves us lacking an elemental plane of man, and since they are so the element is so little understood the abyss could be a natural plane of men and the divine realms could be imitations of it. It was mentioned that the Abyss was a plane on a near infinite scale, but no natural plane is normally that large, except the elemental planes, which are all listed in singular so far as in one plane of fire, water, air, and earth.
This is all mere conjecture at this point. The abyss could simply be a breeding grounds for invisible super rabbits, or a realm meant to hold an Eldritch Abomination beyond mortal comprehension. Remember nothing is truly valid until the ancient, and not senile, stoned, schizophrenic demon confirms thing over a pipe.

Sorry let me clarify what I meant. The five elements have individual elemental planes, but the element of spirit is often expressed as animus or sentience, so it a plane made from spirit would likely have sentience or strongly support it. I merely expressed the thought that the abyss was a natural plane of spirit as sentient beings are very hard to kill in the abyss and recover at improved rates. It is also easy to bring animus or spirits into the abyss and very difficult to bring other elements into it. I don't know what the other elemental planes look like so this is all conjecture. The abyss is weird and spirit is the only element that I can think of that might actively try to bring others to itself through pure willpower. For all intents in purposes a plane of spirit could simply be a collection of sentient thoughts originally. Most sentient beings prefer to have a body to protect their spirit, hence they might over time create a new plane for themselves. This intelligence could then craft the realm so that they might interact with those planes around them. Spirit is weird and I have know idea how it would look, but each plane of spirit could act differently as they might possess sentience and would make them harder to recognize than other elemental planes that would act on set rules.

Any spirit plane is bound to have some sentience, and sentience leads to divergence over time. The spiritual planes would be the hardest to recognize and the afterlife is often seen as a spiritual plane. Angels are often seen as similar to demons by heretics it stands to reason that both are spiritual beings to some extent as both tie into religion. A plane of spirit could look like anything and might shift with perception. The abyss is a natural plane as nothing maintains it and it has the Styx. The river which all must pass over to reach the afterlife. As the river of souls it could possibly have some connection to plane of spirits. It is the only thing I know of present in all afterlives in story that all must pass to move on to their believed afterlife. It is also very strange and should be questioned for appearing in all afterlives in spite of the fact that nobody has knowledge of its origins. If nobody created it then it must be natural, and therefore it must be a reflection of one of the elements. Elements are the only things that are reflected in multiple realities regardless of origin and the river shows up in as a bridge to the afterlife, so a connection to spirits as it draws them to itself. I would say more, but this is all pure speculation, so saying that the Styx is an indicator to a spiritual plane is pure speculation. The Styx is however a strange river or whatever it is. Regardless I don't recommend drinking or swimming in the river as anything referred to as the river of the dead is likely something you don't want to come into contact with. It's also okay in the abyss. Again, spiritual planes have to exist, but will be influenced by perception and hard to recognize. My thought was the Abyss was Astlan's spiritual plane and the afterlives of the god's where merely alternate perceptions or reflections of the spirit by the people.

Edited by user Tuesday, May 27, 2014 5:18:17 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

could be more of a Yin Yang kind of thing. The abyss would simply be the negative aspect of the spirit realm balancing out all of the spirit realms with positive aspects.

back to the killing demons post though. I was just wondering if a demon follows a religion does that allow them to go to an after life when they die?

Are you sure there souls aren't simply absorbed and trapped by the river stix? It could be the river is made of souls. Or do you have information about the river that would make you think otherwise?