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Offline Tizzy  
#81 Posted : Friday, August 22, 2014 12:31:29 AM(UTC)
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Sure it will be.

In book 36!

Dancing
Offline Maou  
#82 Posted : Sunday, August 24, 2014 11:58:18 PM(UTC)
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How many of the people who knew Tom's true name are still alive? It started at about 20 and rose to maybe 26 tops, but I can only confirm about less than half of those people as still being alive.

Also what would happen if a demon where to learn a human's true name, and is their a way to force a human to relinquish their true name in Astlan.

You know apart from forcible removing them from their body, severing from their silver cord, and then placing them inside a circle that compels them to name themselves.
Offline Tizzy  
#83 Posted : Monday, August 25, 2014 12:42:08 AM(UTC)
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Well, the only people that would know his true name would be the people in the room that heard him say it. Plus anyone summoning him.

So, Jehenna, Lenamare, Trisfelt, Elrose, Jenn and the other students. Of which one is known dead (cindered). A few students have not specifically been mentioned as having gotten to Freehold so they are still MIA. That would be the half you can't confirm.

After that, it would only be people who have had to be able to summon him: Rupert and me.

At least I think. However, if I am wrong, I am sure someone will remind me. Angel



If a demon got a human's true name, that depends on the demon and the person. Most demons would not be able to do much with it, since most demons are not spell users/direct mana manipulators. E.g. most demons just have intrinsic magic. So the best they could do is sell it to a higher demon, if there was value in it.

As a rule the demons that could do something with it are:

Greater Demons (the ones that are spell users)
Arch Demons
Demon Prince

Incubae and Succubae (and a few others we will get to at a later date)

Now here is the thing. If an ArchDemon or Demon Prince even knows you exist, let alone knows your true name, you should probably start crapping bricks at that point. They really don't need your true name to make you very very miserable.



Offline Rosver  
#84 Posted : Monday, August 25, 2014 8:54:15 AM(UTC)
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Isn't the name writen in your birth certificate your true name? Or is it something different entirely?
Offline Tizzy  
#85 Posted : Tuesday, August 26, 2014 12:46:55 AM(UTC)
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One might think.

Of course, if you are born to illiterate parents, and delivered by an illiterate midwife, this could be a problem.

Also, not completely sure what happens if you have two non related persons that somehow have the same full name. In that case I think some extra stuff gets added and you really would have to scry for it.
Offline Rosver  
#86 Posted : Thursday, August 28, 2014 8:17:18 AM(UTC)
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In the manga 'Death Note,' the user of the notebook also has to know the face of the victim for the notebook to work. That is the extra stuff that is needed. How about with the true name? What is the extra stuff.
Offline Tizzy  
#87 Posted : Thursday, August 28, 2014 10:45:54 PM(UTC)
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Not clear to me. One presumes that one would need distinguishing parameters of some sort or you could end up with the wrong person.

However, if the demon is initially bound by a name and one does demon summoning rituals (even if the demon isn't summoned to you) the true name used in the initial binding works as expected with no additional parameters being needed.

Now, what happens when you attempt to bind a new demon for the first time and their name is already taken?

you can't have 2 demons in the abyss with the same true name. That we know. Does the binding/incarnation then fail? Or do other parameters get bound into the name.

If I were to guess, for lesser wizards it would fail, for greater wizards with really powerful spells, they can probably work something out that alters the name enough to force the binding. Remember, spelling is also important and this presumably has some leeway given different alphabets/runes etc.

Not clear to me at all. Speculating here.
Offline Maou  
#88 Posted : Thursday, August 28, 2014 11:06:48 PM(UTC)
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Would two demons with the same true name look similar to one and other as the secondary demon, might perhaps be forced in an identical or near identical body of the original holder of that true name?
Offline Rosver  
#89 Posted : Friday, August 29, 2014 3:56:51 AM(UTC)
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True Names has actully pop up in many fantasy books but is not fleshed out. The nature of true name here is just almost illogical. For one thing, our names are actually limited. There are actually many people who share the same name throughout the times. But there have to be infinite number of True Names. If you only have a small set of alphabets (or syllabaries or pictograms) then you would easily run out of practical combinations (a hundred syllable name anyone?). There has to be some sort of loop hole.

And of course I had talked to Tizzy about those 'unpronouncable names' and the rather large available phonemes that isn't all used by any given language. I had often laughed at foreigners when they spoke other language wrong. They just very funny.

Hah! Better not really talk much about this true name thing. We would not be able to get anywhere.
Offline Tizzy  
#90 Posted : Friday, August 29, 2014 4:27:10 PM(UTC)
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yes, I think it very important that people stop thinking about true names.

and in particular, transcribing true names to text/paper in a writing system.

There are clearly lots of problems with this that are too difficult and vexing to think about.

so do not think about this anymore. let's forget true names ever existed or that anyone would ever write them down in some language that might be misinterpretable.

Offline Maou  
#91 Posted : Sunday, August 31, 2014 11:41:30 PM(UTC)
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Demons exist on a continuous spectrum of power, so what happens as they grow. Do they undergo a metamorphosis when they reach a certain level of power or is their power bound to their initial shell. I really wish to know the mechanisms which will normally promote or inhibit demonic growth and to what extent they will affect it.
Offline Rosver  
#92 Posted : Monday, September 1, 2014 7:47:06 AM(UTC)
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Actualy, demons doesn't seem to grow. The book seem to say so. The ability of their demon bodies is fixed.
Offline Tizzy  
#93 Posted : Monday, September 1, 2014 7:40:28 PM(UTC)
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A given body is pretty much fixed, although one could in theory alternate given enough time and effort.

It' really a question of the demon and their power/strength/ability.

Demons can grow in power over long periods of time, just like Astlanians. Most simply don't, or not in ways that are measurable, at least not on mortal timescales.

And I should be clear, unless they are really stupid, and some are, demons do "grow in experience' however some of that doesn't directly translate in a significant rise in "power" as defined by the colors. i.e. measurable mana or animus levels.

For example, a type II demon might eventually become a much better servant, much more able to anticipate the needs of a master and avoid pain and suffering, and better please new masters sooner, etc. Does this change their power level? Not by a huge amount, except over very very long time periods.

Assume a Type II demon doing this for a thousand years, and then a brand new II. Technically in terms of sheer "power" (whatever that is in the mirror) they are both Fiends, but the thousand year old fiend is going to be much more experienced and this would translate into real world advantages in doing their duties serving their master. But would it make them better in combat? Perhaps/probably, but only due to experience and having been in more fights, and if the thousand year old demon had never fought before? Then no it probably wouldn't help.

This comes back to what does "more powerful" mean.

There is sheer, measurable power: mana/animus and then there are less measurable quantities of experience, skill, willpower, determination, motivation etc.

Offline Rosver  
#94 Posted : Monday, September 1, 2014 10:38:22 PM(UTC)
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Tizzy, that makes sense. That is what I got from the book too. Though it is pretty bad for the level 1 demons.

Offline Tizzy  
#95 Posted : Monday, September 1, 2014 10:55:01 PM(UTC)
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Yes.

It sucks to be them. In particular: shadows, for example, just kind of hang out in the dark observing things, they really can't touch much of anything.

Although, I don't recommend getting to cozy with them, they often gang up and they can trap people "in the shadows" and steal the person's life force.

Offline Maou  
#96 Posted : Wednesday, September 3, 2014 6:02:55 PM(UTC)
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Is their anything akin to a shadow demon at a higher level like perhaps one of the rank IV+? I ask as that would be a very misleading demon. It would be darker and larger than other shadow demons, but it would still be a shadow demon.
Offline Tizzy  
#97 Posted : Wednesday, September 3, 2014 9:06:01 PM(UTC)
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Probably not that high.

I have heard of some very powerful shadows, but I don't know anything about them.

But by the time you get to IV+ levels you can generally change shape, so an Arch Demon might have a shadow form, but I doubt they are going to tell anyone, because that would sort of take away the surprise when they drain your soul unexpectedly.

There are some deities and their avatars like that.
Offline Rosver  
#98 Posted : Thursday, September 4, 2014 7:01:20 AM(UTC)
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Can't they shape change to anything? I have asked a similar question before about demons shapeshifting to other creatures that aren't human like elves, dwarves and ogres. Or could they shapeshift and take the form of other demons or a demon shape of their own imagination. Could they even shapeshift to animals like wolves, lions, and elephants. Or why don't they do a partial shapeshift like making their reach longer or having extra sets of limbs.

Shapeshifting is amazing. I would love to have that ability if I choose among others.
Offline Tizzy  
#99 Posted : Friday, September 5, 2014 2:13:25 AM(UTC)
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I think the main reason is that the form/identity has to be something the shifter is comfortable with.

The first demon form is forced on the demon, between his/her imagination and the summoner's imagination/picture/idea

Later ones, at least if they are going to be stable are ones that the shifter can concentrate on, and know the details of very well. And keep the form solid/unchanging.

I suspect if one were a taxidermist or veterinarian you could be a pretty good shapeshifter.

Most secondary forms are humanoid because they are closest to what the shifter knows best. I.e. a human with hooves, or claws or tentacles is a relatively minor thing, or just a completely wacky unreal monster that the user completely makes up.

Getting/knowing all the details of a wolf, and getting it right and realistic is much more tough.

Offline Korwin  
#100 Posted : Monday, September 8, 2014 12:08:34 PM(UTC)
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And most Demons cant shapechange, correct?
Or could an Lvl. 1 Demon learn to shapechange?
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